#46: How to ace job interviews
I've been on more job interview panels over the years than I can remember. I've developed my own insights about what makes for a successful interview, and I've talked to my fellow (often much more experienced) interviewers about their views too. This all comes in helpful when I'm coaching clients who are preparing for an interview - but finally, here I am, offering up the highlights for you to listen to through the comfort of your own headphones! Grab an emotional-support-cuppa and join The Academic Imperfectionist for a job interview masterclass.
Episode transcript:
Is there a way of making job interviews less unbearable? Stay tuned.
You’re listening to The Academic Imperfectionist. I’m Dr Rebecca Roache. I’m a coach and a philosopher at the University of London, and week by week I’ll be drawing on philosophical analysis and coaching insights to help you dump perfectionism and flourish on your own terms.
Hey, friends. Here’s a story that’s going to be depressingly familiar to many of you. I work in a ridiculously male-dominated field. My discipline, philosophy, notoriously has a terrible gender balance. The more senior you get, the worse it is. It’s getting better, I think. I hope. And there are great people in the discipline who are doing great things to help it get to where it needs to be. But in the mean time, being a woman in an environment like this comes with certain costs. One of those costs is that you get called on more than you really should to do the whole ‘representation’ thing. If there’s a panel or a committee or a working group, they’re going to want a woman on it (as well as people from other underrepresented groups, of course). Women, people of colour, trans people, people with disabilities - if we’re there at all, we all get asked to do this sort of stuff more than is ideal. The result, in my case, is that, historically, I’ve sat on tons of job interview panels, both at the University of London, where I am now, and before that at the University of Oxford. Recruitment is hard work. All that application reading, all those discussions, shortlisting, and the stress of knowing that you’re going to be playing a part in a significant turning point in someone’s career - all this on top of your day-to-day work. But there’s something good that comes out of it: I have accumulated a lot of thoughts on how to do well in academic job interviews. I say academic job interviews, but I suspect that a lot of this applies outside academia too - though I’m not going to make any bold claims about that, having never interviewed anyone for a non-academic job. Anyway. These insights I’ve gained over the years have resulted partly from my own experiences as an interviewer, and partly from what’s been said to me by the other interviewers on the panels I’ve been on - people who often have decades of experience in the field, and who have seen the landscape of academia change over the years. There was a time, well over a decade ago, when I was collecting insights in this area with the aim of maybe writing something about it - an article setting out advice for people on the academic job market. I never got around to it. But it all came in useful, in the end. I’ve been able to draw on it during coaching sessions with quite a few clients who been preparing for job interviews. And so, inevitably, I’ve decided that it’s time to devote a podcast episode to it. So, get the kettle on, stick another jumper on (because it’s cheaper than turning on the heating), and snuggle up while I share with you some of the most important things I know about acing job interviews.
Here’s the first thing. And I’m sorry to break it to you like this, but … it’s not all about you. Really. The spotlight is not on you, the way you think it is. I know you’re painfully aware of the fact that there were those 3 months back in 2016 when you were slightly less productive than you think you should have been, and that you just know that the fact that you didn’t attend that one conference that everyone else in your field did may as well come with flashing warning lights attached to your CV, but actually, the people interviewing you haven’t read any of this stuff as thoroughly as you think they’ve done. They might have received literally hundreds of applications for the job you’re being interviewed for - seriously, my own colleagues told me that my own job had over 250 applications when it was advertised back in 2014. Even if your interviewers started out with the best of intentions to read every application with painstaking care, there’s only so much time and energy they can give to this. If you’ve made the interview stage, then your application has had a fair bit of scrutiny, of course - but you’re dreaming if you think they’ve memorised every detail. And that gives you a fantastic opportunity to act as a kind of tour guide, if you can pull yourself together and stop panicking for a second. There’s a couple of ways you can use this to your advantage. The first involves the cover letter, or the personal statement, or whatever that bit is where you get to write in prose about yourself. Perhaps you’re rolling your eyes here and muttering about how nobody reads the cover letter. Admittedly, that might be true in some cases - I’ve spoken to interviewers who don’t give it that much thought. But I’ve also been on recruitment panels with people who have said things like, ‘I’m always surprised how much influence the cover letter has’. That’s always been my experience. I mean, yeah, you’re not really providing information in the letter that’s not covered in the CV, but you can think of the letter as like a spotlight. You’re the tour guide, as I say. You’re taking a group of visitors around this amazing, historic castle. Without you, they’re just going to walk around going, ‘yep, it’s a castle’, especially as they’ve already spent the week viewing castles. But with your help, as you shine your spotlight around to pick out the interesting bits, they’re going to see so much more. They’re going to understand that those narrow holes in the walls were made for firing arrows at advancing armies. They’re going to find out that these massive windowless rooms in the basement were for storing food in the times before freezers were invented. And so on. Where do you want to lead your tour group? Where do you want to shine your spotlight? What do you want them to see and understand about you and your career? Here’s your chance. Do it in the letter.
Here’s another important point that comes out of realising that your interviewers haven’t memorised your application inside and out. Sometimes, in an interview, you’ll get asked questions that are puzzling because you’ve covered them already in the application. Questions like, ‘Can you describe what you’ve been working on over the past year?’ Now, because, when you’re in an interview, you’re probably on the defensive (and I’ll come back to this in a moment), you might go a bit rabbit-in-the-headlights in response to a question like this. You’re thinking, but I said in my application what I’ve been working on, why are they asking me this? And, understandably, you decide that the answer must be that the way you covered this information in your application wasn’t clear, or wasn’t satisfactory in some other sense. I mean, this person asking you this question has read your application and still doesn’t understand what you’ve been doing, so your application must have been pretty crappy, right? And so, what do you do? You get flustered and you start answering the question based on the assumption that the person asking it already knows what you said in your application and just wants more detail, so off you go on a deep, panicky dive into all the research rabbit holes that you didn’t think you really needed to get into when you wrote your application. Friend, calm down - you don’t need to do that. There’s a simpler explanation for why you’re being asked for information that you’ve already provided, and that’s that the person asking you has forgotten that you’ve already provided it. Or, if they haven’t forgotten, they’re just trying to get you warmed up so they can discuss your research with you. They might even think, bless them, that they’re asking you a nice question - like, ‘this person is probably nervous, let’s give them a question that they’ll definitely know the answer to’. It is completely and utterly fine, if you think it’s relevant, to answer questions by reiterating stuff you’ve already said in the application. In fact, more generally, it’s completely fine to stick closely to what you’ve said in your application. Go ahead and repeat it. Seriously. None of these people on the other side of the table are experts on your application. Only you are. Don’t be afraid of being repetitive. If they want you to add detail or cover stuff that isn’t covered in the application, they’ll ask. Think of them as more like kids who haven’t done their homework, and less like merciless tormentors who have found your application worthless and so need you to start again with proving that you are up to the job.
Let’s go back to this idea of going into an interview on the defensive. That’s natural, okay? You’re a brilliant person who has made the shortlisting stage of this impressive job, and like most brilliant people, you have impostor syndrome. You’re going into the interview thinking, not, ‘Here is my chance to shine and be worshipped for the great intellect that I am’, but ‘Here comes the moment when I finally get unmasked for the jumped-up charlatan that I in fact am’. Every question you’re asked in the interview is an attack, according to you. You may as well be a defendant in court, caught with the smoking gun, and having to answer questions just as a matter of procedure before you get banged up for life, because everyone here knows what sort of person you really are. That’s what’s going on with you when you walk into the interview, shake hands, and sit down. I’m not going to tell you how stupid it is to view things that way, because I know that you’re smart and that on some level you already know that. The important question is: how can you calibrate your responses, so that you don’t allow your impostor syndrome to hold you back and prevent you giving it your best shot? Well, one thing you can do is what you’ve hopefully just done while you’ve listened to me talk about being on the defensive; in other words, recognise that, in a job interview, it’s natural to be like this and to view yourself as under attack. Don’t beat yourself up about it. Give yourself a hug instead. Hug yourself through the interview, if you can remember - I mean, maybe just visualise yourself doing it rather than actually do it, because that would look a bit weird. Telling yourself something like, ‘This is hard, and it’s understandable that I feel attacked’ goes some way towards helping you realise that the reason you feel this way is because you’re stressed, and not because you really are under attack.
Here’s another thing you can do. You might find it helpful to practise this before getting to an interview, if you can. It’s easy to view the questions we get asked in interviews as attacks, and a powerful way to counter this is to consider how we’d respond to them if they were being asked by someone we feel comfortable with. Take, for example, that old chestnut, ‘Why do you want to work here?’ In an interview, it’s all too easy to respond by thinking, ‘Oh my god, they think I have ulterior motives for applying for this job and I need to convince them that I don’t and that my reasons are good enough, but actually what if my reasons aren’t good enough?’. And off we go, straight into defensive mode. And when we do that, it sometimes doesn’t even occur to us to think about what the actual answer to the question even is. It doesn’t occur to us to reflect on why we want the job - all we care about, in that moment, is saying the right thing, saying something that’s going to turn this particular interaction into a positive rather than a negative. But imagine, instead, how you’d respond if your sister or your best friend asked you why you want to work at that particular institution. There’d be no suspicion in your mind that you were being attacked with this question. Your assumption would be that you were being asked simply out of curiosity, out of an interest in your career, an interest in what, in your world, makes for a desirable job opening. And so, perhaps you take a moment to reflect, and then you talk from the heart about what it is that’s attracted you to apply for this particular job. You’re not trying to showcase your brilliance while you’re answering. You don’t even think you need to do that in front of this particular person, right? You’re simply answering the question from the point of view of the highly qualified, experienced, competent person you are. Well, guess what? You can answer that way in an interview too. Don’t automatically assume the question is an attack. The people asking you might simply be curious about you, just as your best friend would be curious. And in any case - this might give you some helpful perspective too - it’s often the case that interviewers will have a list of questions that they ask every candidate, in which case the whole thing is more like a box-ticking exercise. There are so many reasons you might be getting asked whatever it is. Have a think about how you might respond before you get to the interview, perhaps before you even make the application. Talk it over with friends and family and other people you feel comfortable opening up to. And even if you get blindsided in an interview by a question you haven’t anticipated, take a moment to reflect on how you’d receive that question if it were being asked by someone close to you in a more comfortable environment. By the way, that last bit there - ‘take a moment to reflect’ - is an important point too. You don’t have to spew words the moment the interviewer finishes asking a question. It is completely fine to say, ‘Hmm, interesting question, let me take a moment to reflect’. I mean, let’s not pretend that taking a moment to reflect while a panel of interviewers is staring at you is particularly relaxing - but it can still make a difference, especially if you use it to take a breath and get in touch with what the answer to that question actually is.
Right. So. Yeah, it’s true that you’re not necessarily under an attack during an interview. But, what if you are? I mean, sometimes it happens. Sometimes, the people interviewing you are locked in a vicious battle that has nothing to do with you. Sometimes, you’re just the pawn, and someone on the interview panel might attack you for the purpose of scoring a point against someone else. So, that’s one important point here: if you really do get attacked during an interview, and you don’t have a history with any of these people, then this battle has nothing to do with you. If that happens, take it as a red flag. Do you really want to work here? If this is what they’re like when they’re on their best behaviour during the recruitment exercise, what are they going to be like as colleagues? Don’t let your scarcity mindset - your sense of ‘I’m a beggar and I can’t afford to be choosy’ - don’t let that get in the way of picking up on signs that perhaps this is not the workplace for you. Ok, setting that aside, what I want you to realise is this. It’s really tempting, in a job interview, to take a ‘me versus them’ view of things. Even the physical set-up of the room typically invites that: they’re sat on one side of the table, you’re on the other. You’re the candidate, they’re the interviewers, and they’re all working together, right? Well, yes, that’s true, but they’re also individuals with different ideals and mindsets and views about what the best outcome is going to look like here. If someone interviewing you gives you a hard time, it’s tempting to assume that the entire interview panel is against you, but that is really unlikely, I think. What’s more likely is that there will be other people on the panel rooting for you and silently fuming about the aggressive approach that their colleague is taking. It’s unlikely that they’re going to have it out with each other while you’re sitting there, of course, but this is a case where it would be a mistake to view the other interviewers’ silence as complicity. You’ve probably come across something similar at talks and conferences, when one audience member gets a bee in their bonnet during the Q&A and just goes on and on about something, long after it has become uncomfortable for the speaker. If you’re one of the other audience members, you might have exchanged exasperated looks with other people there, and witnessed plenty of people giving the questioner the side-eye. Yet, at the same time, from the point of view of the speaker who is having to deal with that sort of attack, it might seem that everyone - that is, the entire audience - is against them. So, if the worst happens in an interview (or in a conference presentation, for that matter) and you do come under attack, try not to catastrophise. It’s just one person. One person stepping out of line. Take a breath and allow yourself to feel the support that is being silently sent your way from the other people in the room. Take a breath.
Ok, I’ve mentioned scarcity mindset already, and I have an episode devoted to this: episode #12: Delete your scarcity mindset. But it’s worth saying a bit about it here too. When you apply for a job and get an interview - especially if you have a long history, as many of us do, of applying for jobs and not getting an interview - it’s easy to slip into focusing solely on trying to get the job and ignoring questions about whether you actually want the job. You can’t afford to walk into just any job you fancy, after all, can you? Well, no, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t get any say in the matter either. Keep in mind, when you go to an interview, that this is your opportunity to interview them, too. Don’t wilfully ignore red flags: squabbling colleagues, hints about terrible work/life balance, a history of people moving on quickly after being employed, that sort of thing. You’d be an asset to these people, seriously. Trust in your experience and your expertise. All that is impressive regardless of whether they decide to go with you. When you get invited to an interview, what can you do to make the most of your opportunity to work out whether this workplace is the right one for you, somewhere where you’d be happy and fulfilled and appreciated? Well, you can think about how you’ll respond to that question you always get asked at the end of an interview, you know: ‘Do you have any questions for us?’ For many of us, that’s the sign that this stressful ordeal is over, and we’re mainly focused on getting out of the door. But if you can resist that and hold on for just a few more moments, you can think about what you could ask that will give you the insights you need here. Some good ones I’ve heard over the years include, ‘What do you like best about working here?’, ‘What does the department or institution do to support a healthy work/life balance?’, and ‘Can you talk a bit about the department’s longer-term plans for growth?’ I’m sure you can think of some good ones. Perhaps you can bounce around some ideas with friends and colleagues. And, remember, you might need to look as much at what’s not said in response to these questions, as to what’s said. If you mention something like work/life balance and everyone looks at you as if you’re an alien that’s just landed on earth, then maybe this isn’t the department for you - at least, not if you like seeing the inside of your home occasionally.
Finally, let me say a few words about rejection. Because when you’re applying for jobs, rejection is something you’ll encounter far more than success, unless you’re very very lucky. How do you deal with it? Well, that’s something else I’ve covered in a previous podcast episode: #30: Rejection stings less when you channel your inner toddler. But let me add this. It’s a numbers game. Like I just said, you’ll encounter rejection far more than you encounter success. Make peace with that, for a start. Have multiple applications on the go at once, if you can, so that a rejection from one doesn’t spell the end of the process. Expect rejection. Embrace the mindset of thinking: ‘I wonder how many rejections I’ll need to experience before I finally get a job?’ And, hard though it is, try not to take it personally. Here’s an insight that I hope will help with that. The academic job market is dire. You probably already know that. There are way more superb, smart, dazzlingly qualified people than there are decent jobs for them. When I’ve done a day of interviews - which, typically, has tended to involve interviewing six candidates - I’ve had the strangely jarring experience of ending it feeling uplifted at how brilliant and interesting everyone was, and then recognising with regret that five of them, despite their brilliance, will not get the job. It is difficult, as a candidate, to work out how you could not take rejection personally. But it’s just as difficult, as an interviewer, to work out how anyone could plausibly conclude that the unsuccessful candidates ought to take it personally. There’s only one job, after all. And deciding who gets the job isn’t as simple as ranking the candidates from best to worst. There’s fit with the department to consider. If the highest qualified person works on a topic that a dozen people in the department already work on, that’s going to count against them. If the most impressive candidate is very specialised and the department is small and in need of versatile people who can teach on a wide range of topics, they’re going to be bumped down the list. It’s not you. Get over it - and I say that in the nicest possible way. I tend to advise clients who are facing an interview to plan a treat for themselves as a reward for getting through the experience - regardless of the outcome. Doesn’t have to be something expensive - it could be an evening spent reading a novel on the sofa, guilt-free, or my favourite go-to treat, a nap. You deserve it. Job hunting is stressful, regardless of whether or not you get the job. Recognise that, and nurture yourself. Good luck with any applications that you’re currently working on, and see you next time.
I’m Dr Rebecca Roache, and you’ve been listening to The Academic Imperfectionist. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe on whatever podcast app you like to use. I want to help as many people as I can with these episodes, and I’d really appreciate it if you’d share the podcast with any friends who you think might find it useful, and if you’d consider leaving a review on your podcast app. If you’d like to support the podcast financially, you can do that at patreon.com/academicimperfectionist. For more information about me, the podcast, and my coaching, please visit the website - academicimperfectionist.com. You’ll find links there to The Academic Imperfectionist on Twitter and Facebook too. If you have an idea or a request for a future episode of The Academic Imperfectionist, please drop me a line, either via my website or by tweeting your idea with the hashtag #AcademicImperfectionist. Thank you for listening, and see you next time!
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